Utah Man Shot to Death by Police for Raising a Golf Club...

[TFOGGER]

No, it doesn't mean the guy should've died. However, there's a process in place called the court system. That system is in place to deal with inappropriate police behavior.

You deal with a bad warrant, 4th amendment violation, etc...when you go to court. Not by raising a potentially lethal weapon over your head as if you mean to strike an armed police officer with it. Courts frequently rule against cops in search and seizure activities. If it's bad, it'll likely come to light in a courtroom.

The guy had a history of making bad decisions. This was just another in a long line. And who knows? Maybe he was under the influence of various drugs when this whole thing happened.

Not to belabor the point, but the alleged drug dealer won't get his day in court.

No knock warrants/dynamic entries are DESIGNED to confuse and frighten the targets. Evolution has programmed us to respond to such stimuli with one of 2 reactions: Flight or Fight.

Given the rising incidence of home invasion robberies and assaults in recent years, was his response unreasonable? Would you assume that someone kicking the door in in the middle of the night was a police officer?

[Bailey Guns]

Well, quite honestly, I really don't worry about it because, as mentioned a little earlier, I don't put myself in situations that might cause the police to do that.

I also don't do drugs or other substances (alcohol) to the extent it impairs my judgment.

I gotta tell ya. I CLEARLY heard and understood what the officers were saying on the video. Several of them yelled quite loud and legibly who they were. If I could easily hear and comprehend it from a YouTube video, I'm pretty sure I could've identified them inside my home. The dead guy won't get his day in court because he made a bad judgment call for whatever reason.

That's another thing I find kinda funny from a bunch of people who are self-professed "gun guys". A key tenent in using a gun in self-defense is identifying your target. If someone were to be awakened by a commotion in their home I certainly hope they'd take the time to positively identify a target prior to shooting at said target. And if they did identify that target as a police officer (or several of them all dressed in what appeared to be police SWAT uniforms), why would that person shoot?

[Zundfolge]

That's another thing I find kinda funny from a bunch of people who are self-professed "gun guys". A key tenent in using a gun in self-defense is identifying your target. If someone were to be awakened by a commotion in their home I certainly hope they'd take the time to positively identify a target prior to shooting at said target. And if they did identify that target as a police officer (or several of them all dressed in what appeared to be police SWAT uniforms), why would that person shoot?

Because like you I don't engage in any criminal activity so I have to assume if there are guys dressed like a SWAT team yelling "Police" and kicking in my door they are robbers pretending to be cops.

[BigBear]

To throw something out there...

There have been several instances lately where people dressed as LEO's have broken down doors and robbed/raped claiming they were "pol-eeeeeece" to entince the cooperation of the victims.

I would imagine that one would need more than yelling "Police" while pointing a gun at me after a no-knock entrance to take it seriously... From his past, could he have thought it would be some bangers trying to rip off his stash, etc?

Dunno, just thoughts. I just hope I never have a confused no-knock cause I'd probably end up dead. Knock on the door, show me your creds and you can have free reign of the house.... Knock down the door yelling (I don't care what) and there will most likely be a confused shootout with someone ending up dead.

[Bailey Guns]

Well, I don't have every instance of a home invasion where the bad guys dress up like cops memorized. However, my gut tells me they all have one thing in common. And that one thing ain't the fact that everyone in the home is a fine, upstanding, contributing member of society. I'd also be willing to bet that when this does happen it wouldn't take a real genius to determine maybe the intruders weren't real cops.

I know it sometimes happens to innocent people and it shouldn't. But I'd wager it happens far more often to those who really aren't innocent. Sometimes you have to make your own luck.

[TFOGGER]

Well, quite honestly, I really don't worry about it because, as mentioned a little earlier, I don't put myself in situations that might cause the police to do that.

But as was pointed out earlier, mistakes have been made. Police have crashed the wrong party on many occasions. You might not have made bad decisions, but perhaps your neighbor has. Granted, the police get it right more often than they get it wrong, but they get it wrong often enough to make it a legitimate concern in my mind.

I would be likely to respond to a violent invasion of my home with force (and probably get myself killed) primarily BECAUSE I have not knowingly given the police a reason to take an interest in my activities, therefore I would not expect them to be behind a violent entry. Just because the are screaming "POLICE!! SEARCH WARRANT!" doesn't mean that I am going to understand what they are saying in my adrenaline rush, or if I do, that I am going to believe them.

[Bailey Guns]

This is a test.

If police officers were to kick down your door during the execution of a search warrant, do you think they might say:

a) Yelling loud, repeated verbal commands: "POLICE!!! SEARCH WARRANT!"

b) In loud voices: "Yo muthafukka. Gitchyo bitchass on the muthafukkin' flo fo I bus a muthafukkin cap in you bitchass. Where da shit, huh? Where it at?"

c) Both of the above

d) Neither of the above

[Bailey Guns]

But as was pointed out earlier, mistakes have been made. Police have crashed the wrong party on many occasions. You might not have made bad decisions, but perhaps your neighbor has. Granted, the police get it right more often than they get it wrong, but they get it wrong often enough to make it a legitimate concern in my mind.

I would be likely to respond to a violent invasion of my home with force (and probably get myself killed) primarily BECAUSE I have not knowingly given the police a reason to take an interest in my activities, therefore I would not expect them to be behind a violent entry. Just because the are screaming "POLICE!! SEARCH WARRANT!" doesn't mean that I am going to understand what they are saying in my adrenaline rush, or if I do, that I am going to believe them.

Well, I guess that's the difference between you and me. I don't worry about it. I would worry more about being eaten alive by sharks in Bailey than worry about the police mistakenly breaking into my home.

But to each his own.

[68Charger]

Truthfully and I'm really not being sarcastic...don't do anything like selling drugs out of your house that would cause you to be on the police radar. It becomes a police state when normal, law abiding citizens are having their doors caved in and not just those who are involved in activities THAT ARE CRIMINAL.

This assumes that warrants are always issued on factual information, and no mistakes are ever made... Police are human, and subject to mistakes. Execute a no-knock warrant on the wrong house (for various reasons- wrong address, bad intel, etc) and it could happen to an innocent person... or maybe there are innocent visitors present?

This naturally segues into the next topic of people's belief that all cops are corrupt and will plant evidence and lie on affivadits regularly "just to get you". Please go ahead and continue the anti-cop rant.

Or the assumption that all suspects are guilty?

I'm not "worried" about it happening to me, not much point in that- if it did, it would probably be a couple/few of my dogs that would be shot first...

[TFOGGER]

Well, I guess that's the difference between you and me. I don't worry about it. I would worry more about being eaten alive by sharks in Bailey than worry about the police mistakenly breaking into my home.

But to each his own.

I would be a lot less concerned if I lived in Bailey. In reality, I live in Aurora. Yes, there are home invasions there. Yes, there are cops there that don't know the difference between 16th Avenue and 16th Place (a story for another time). But until such a time as I can afford to become a hermit, that's part of my reality.

No hard feelings, just a different point of view.


BTW, I'll prolly be in Bailey at the Cutthroat for breakfast on the 13th, before the Elephant Ride in Grant.....