Question for the Conceal Permit holders

[Graves]

so you are the final authority on who should or can carry?

I agree that there are some serious ass-clowns are undereducated people out there.
Myself being one of them. you may call me an ass-clown but I'm actually referring to the undereducated part, as we all are. No one in here knows everything about everything in all situations.

so I say again, where is the line?

Making an observation doesnt mean he's staking his claim on the final word in the matter. If you can't tell when to pull out your weapon and fire, you shouldn't have one on you out in public, plain and simple. I really don't see how hard it is to draw the line there.

[Ronin13]

If you can't tell when to pull out your weapon and fire, you shouldn't have one on you out in public, plain and simple. I really don't see how hard it is to draw the line there.

I would say if there's any doubt don't pull it out. Take that dirty if you want
The problem is, every situation is different and some people would be hesitant to draw because they don't fully understand the situation. Case in point- the guy who taught my brother's CCW class said that he had a friend in a convenience store when a man came in and shot the clerk 3 times. No words, no warning, nothing stolen. He took cover, drew and waited for the guy to start walking the store and searching for witnesses to kill. Nothing, the guy left. Later he found that the guy was a father who's daughter was hospitalized due to a drug overdose and the dealer was the man working in the convenience store. After already telling the man weeks ago not to sell to his daughter or he'd kill him, the daughter ended up in the ER and the man made good on his promise. Was he right? No, but the instructors buddy made a wise decision to not intervene on a situation he didn't know and chose to only defend himself if the event happened to sway in that direction.

[Hkguy45]

I would say if there's any doubt don't pull it out. Take that dirty if you want
The problem is, every situation is different and some people would be hesitant to draw because they don't fully understand the situation. Case in point- the guy who taught my brother's CCW class said that he had a friend in a convenience store when a man came in and shot the clerk 3 times. No words, no warning, nothing stolen. He took cover, drew and waited for the guy to start walking the store and searching for witnesses to kill. Nothing, the guy left. Later he found that the guy was a father who's daughter was hospitalized due to a drug overdose and the dealer was the man working in the convenience store. After already telling the man weeks ago not to sell to his daughter or he'd kill him, the daughter ended up in the ER and the man made good on his promise. Was he right? No, but the instructors buddy made a wise decision to not intervene on a situation he didn't know and chose to only defend himself if the event happened to sway in that direction.

nice little devils advocate point....i think the most critical point here is self defense...what a crazy story

[Ronin13]

nice little devils advocate point....i think the most critical point here is self defense...what a crazy story

Well it goes to show that in a class setting you can present whatever scenario you like... but in the RW, well things may not be so cut and dry. What if there is an undercover, or off duty LEO? Would you shoot him and risk being pursued and killed by his buddies? My advice, if he IDs himself as a cop- which anyone can say they're one- tell him not to approach you and that you're armed. If he's stupid he'll step toward you and get shot, if he's smart he'll stay back and show some form or ID or back down, hopefully. I'd just use the defense "Anyone can SAY they're a cop."

[SAnd]

There is a big difference is saying

'You shouldn't carry a gun if you don't know what to do in all situations.'

As compared to-

'You shouldn't pull the trigger if you aren't sure of a situation.'

The first says you aren't allowed to defend yourself if masked thief pulls a weapon on you and demands your money and no one else is around. The second one says that you are allowed to defend yourself if you know not to shot if you aren't sure of who is the bad guy in a crowd.

Nobody knows everything. I won't deny a person the right to self defense as long they know when not to pull the trigger.

[Ronin13]

Nobody knows everything. I won't deny a person the right to self defense as long they know when not to pull the trigger.

Sometimes that's more important than knowing when to pull the trigger.

[JustAGuy]

Well....one to think about ...but not for long.... Drop the bad guy - if it is a SAFE shot.....No folks in the way -- either in front - or behind the bad shooter... Do what needs to be done.....do it NOW... Then holster - your weapon - out of sight....so no one shoots you ... Then things will take care of themselves...as folks gather and COPS Show up.... Been there. In the Military - At a Bank in SUBIC BAY...Philippines...2 US MARINES came on a ROBBERY...they stood there ...with their hands on their pistols...and -- 2 PHILIPPINE MARINES burst in - pushed the US MARINES out of the way and shot down the robber - who was armed with a SHOTGUN.. You do not take time to think.... You ACT...immediate - to save lives... It all works out ..some may hate you later -- tough... Been there also.. I made the Papers in San Diego... POLICE BRUTALITY ABOARD NAVAL VESSEL.. I had to drop a dude on the Ship - doped up... But - he was lucky . I did not have time to grab my 1911 -- so I had to use the RIOT BATON... Did the job well... No - never fear - if you need to do the job to save lives - do it ... But put the piece away afterwards -- Looks better - and no one will be shooting at you. SEMPER FI

I'm new here but find the discussions on this board to be very interesting and I've picked up quite a bit of good information on various topics.

I must say though, that in this particular thread, mixed in with some very well thought out and carefully considered responses, some things are deeply disturbing.

One poster in particular just scares the bajeezus out of me:

one to think about ...but not for long
Do what needs to be done.....do it NOW
Then things will take care of themselves
It all works out ..some may hate you later -- tough
I made the Papers in San Diego... POLICE BRUTALITY ABOARD NAVAL VESSEL
No - never fear - if you need to do the job to save lives - do it
But put the piece away afterwards -- Looks better

And the icing on the cake:

You do not take time to think.... You ACT

As I was reading the post that contained these items, I kept going to a specific situation in my mind and thinking about what could happen if this poster rolled up behind me.

I'm being carjacked at a light, can't move my vehicle. I decide (and it IS MY decision) that I can't draw my sidearm from my right hip quickly enough to keep this guy from shooting me before I get out of the vehicle. So, I put the shifter in park, open the door and step out. As the jacker is getting in and I'm drawing to stop him, the poster above rolls up and decides he doesn't need to take the time to think and has to ACT instead. He proceeds to put several large holes in me and the criminal speeds away in my truck.

Now, if my children (who are in the back seat of the truck) survive the brutality about to be inflicted on them by the jacker, they will be without a father to care for them. Is this the situation where they would hate the shooter (hero)? Who's going to tell my kids "tough, it all works out"? Will the fact that you made the papers justify killing a father of three girls?

Please, don't try to save my life...I don't need you to do that. I'll protect myself. Go save somebody else's life...and be sure to put the piece away afterwards -- Looks better.

[earplug]

How many hypothetical events will/can you pay/charge for in a CCW class?

[mcantar18c]

I'm not motivated enough to go find the posts you're talking about, but what I'm getting from your post is that 1. He's mostly right and it seems like you're missing something, and 2. You might want to rethink some things.

He's mostly right:
You don't think. You act. You respond. You don't think, that's what gets you dead. You revert to your training, which is why its important to get some good training.
You do what need to be done, and you do it NOW. You don't hesitate, that's what gets you dead.
You worry about the fight when you're in the fight, and you worry about the "after the fight" AFTER the fight. You don't worry about being sued when faced with a life or death situation, that's what gets you dead.
Put the piece down afterwards. Whether this is reholstering it or clearing it and setting it on the ground. Not because it looks better (that is a small part), but because a cop that's responding to a shots fired call shows up and sees a man with a gun in his hand will see you as a threat. I could be wrong, but I'd certainly see you as a threat if I were in his shoes and I'd treat you as such.

What you might want to rethink:
The way that you carry in the car. If you can't draw from your driver's seat quickly and efficiently, why the hell are you carrying it? No point carrying a weapon that you can't use well. I carry AIWB on my person, but I'm not dumb enough to keep it there in the car because I know it will be difficult to draw from that position. When I get in the car I put it in between the seat and the center console, only a few inches from my hand at any given time and easy to draw, and reholster it before I get out.

What you're missing:
The situation you imagined is NOT the same as the one the poster you're talking about was thinking (I think). All of what I said above applies to a REACTIVE fight... like getting mugged on the street, or getting carjacked, where they are the attacker and you are the target, and all of what's been said applies. What you're thinking of in your imaginary situation is a PROACTIVE fight... like seeing someone getting raped in an alley way or seeing someone getting carjacked, where YOU become the attacker and THEY become the target.
Reactive fight: They are the attacker, you are the target. They have the advantage. They put you in a position where you must react to their actions.
Proactive fight: You are the attacker, they are the target. You have the advantage. You can assess the situation before hand and decide how, and if, to act upon it, and by acting upon the situation you make the target react to your actions.

Make sense?

I'm new here but find the discussions on this board to be very interesting and I've picked up quite a bit of good information on various topics.

I must say though, that in this particular thread, mixed in with some very well thought out and carefully considered responses, some things are deeply disturbing.

One poster in particular just scares the bajeezus out of me:

one to think about ...but not for long
Do what needs to be done.....do it NOW
Then things will take care of themselves
It all works out ..some may hate you later -- tough
I made the Papers in San Diego... POLICE BRUTALITY ABOARD NAVAL VESSEL
No - never fear - if you need to do the job to save lives - do it
But put the piece away afterwards -- Looks better

And the icing on the cake:

You do not take time to think.... You ACT

As I was reading the post that contained these items, I kept going to a specific situation in my mind and thinking about what could happen if this poster rolled up behind me.

I'm being carjacked at a light, can't move my vehicle. I decide (and it IS MY decision) that I can't draw my sidearm from my right hip quickly enough to keep this guy from shooting me before I get out of the vehicle. So, I put the shifter in park, open the door and step out. As the jacker is getting in and I'm drawing to stop him, the poster above rolls up and decides he doesn't need to take the time to think and has to ACT instead. He proceeds to put several large holes in me and the criminal speeds away in my truck.

Now, if my children (who are in the back seat of the truck) survive the brutality about to be inflicted on them by the jacker, they will be without a father to care for them. Is this the situation where they would hate the shooter (hero)? Who's going to tell my kids "tough, it all works out"? Will the fact that you made the papers justify killing a father of three girls?

Please, don't try to save my life...I don't need you to do that. I'll protect myself. Go save somebody else's life...and be sure to put the piece away afterwards -- Looks better.

[JustAGuy]

I'm not motivated enough to go find the posts you're talking about, but what I'm getting from your post is that 1. He's mostly right and it seems like you're missing something, and 2. You might want to rethink some things.

He's mostly right:
You don't think. You act. You respond. You don't think, that's what gets

(...)

Make sense?

Thanks for the input. I honestly do appreciate it.

I think this may boil down to a difference in the reasons why different people carry.

My interpretation of the post I was refering to leads me to believe that this particular individual may carry a gun because he wants to be a hero and be looked up to (by others) as such. I say that due to the references to "saving lives", "making the papers", "put the piece away...it looks better", etc.

My motivations are very different. I carry a gun for one reason and one reason alone. To protect my life and the lives of my family. I view protecting my family as a responsibility similar to feeding them, clothing them, sheltering them, etc. A basic responsibility I have to MY FAMILY AND MYSELF.

I have established a very simple set of criteria that must be met before I will use the tool at my side...I'm a simple man, it HAS to be simple. My criteria are:

Am I in immediate danger of losing my life or sustaining personal injury due to the intentional actions of another?

Is a member of my family in immediate danger of losing their life or sustaining personal injury due to the intentional actions of another?

Note: I'm always re-assessing these criteria to see if I can make them simpler or easier to use.

That's it. If I, as a reasonable man, believe either of those criteria are met, I use the tool.

If any other situation occurs, the bar gets moved MUCH higher as to what facts I need to be completely convinced of before I will use the tool. I am under no obligation nor do I have the need/desire to protect the rest of society...I'm too busy raising my babies.

I guess what scares me about the post in question is the (my interpretation from what was written by another poster) "I don't have the responsibility to think before I employ deadly force" attitude. For me, personally, part of the responsibility of carrying a concealed weapon is knowing when NOT to pull the trigger.