Train!

[mcantar18c]

I just googled the ak47 used in the IHOP shooting and came across a forum it was on. And every one kept saying it was automatic gunfire they heard and the sheriff also said it was automatic.

I've been asked if I was shooting a full auto before at the range. To the sheep (including the sheep with guns), anything that fires faster than a bolt action sounds like full auto.

[mcantar18c]

A full auto weapon isn't a fire hose and there's always more air than meat. Someone who "just sprays at folks" is much more likely to have a lower body count than a higher.

As a rule of thumb, sure. But in a densely packed restaurant where most of the people are stationary and fairly close to each other?

We went through this in the 9mm vs. 45 thread but I'll say it again here. Pistols suck as fight stoppers. Nothing that is man portable can stop a threat guaranteed.

Shooting a threat behind cover is a job for a rifle and a good barrier blind projectile.

For that matter, shooting a threat at 65M is a job for a rifle too.

Armchair quarterbacking a fight is gay.

I'm pretty sure you were one of the only ones that agreed with me in that thread. All common handgun calibers suck, period.
That said, there may be times where you need to shoot through cover (wood, drywall, thin sheet metal, etc.) to stop the threat... and you can easily find multiple cases where shooting through cover is what saved the victims life. A round powerful enough to do that is enough to do the job at 65m (if you do your part).
A .25ACP fired out of a pocket pistol is not one of those rounds.

[brokenscout]

Armchair quarterbacking a fight is gay.[/quote]

[cstone]

A knife in the right person's hands is sometimes all the deadly force needed.

If only Chuck Norris had been there!

Oh, and everyone's gun is poop!

On a serious note, if I happen across some definitive information on make and model for either weapon, I will try to remember to post it on the board along with a source.

[Atrain1]

A knife in the right person's hands is sometimes all the deadly force needed.

If only Chuck Norris had been there!

Oh, and everyone's gun is poop!

On a serious note, if I happen across some definitive information on make and model for either weapon, I will try to remember to post it on the board along with a source.

I will try and find that forum I came across. there was one before that one that said it was a registered Chinese full auto ak47.

[Irving]

Never believe anything the public says.

I thought this guy specifically targeted members of the National Guard. Sounds like picking and choosing to me.

What kind of DEFENSIVE situation will you be shooting at someone through cover again?

[cstone]

I will try and find that forum I came across. there was one before that one that said it was a registered Chinese full auto ak47.

Everything I've read in the return on the warrants served on the minivan, at his brother's house and the house he lived in with his parents has been vague as to details on weapons, shotgun, bb gun, AK47 magazines. The only semi-detailed information I saw was a 9mm Glock pistol and ammunition.

This is one of the better articles I've found, and the Nevada Appeal has been covering the story as the Sheriff's Department has released information:

http://www.nevadaappeal.com/article/...ntprofile=1058

There is also a link to some surveillance video from the Local's BBQ restaurant on the Nevada Appeal's web site.

[mcantar18c]

Armchair quarterbacking a fight is gay.

So we can't criticize someone's actions unless we were right there next to them?
Right, got it.

Never believe anything the public says.

Amen.

I thought this guy specifically targeted members of the National Guard. Sounds like picking and choosing to me.

He also shot (and I believe killed) an older woman on a motorcycle out front. Doesn't really seem like a threat... which means targets of opportunity/body count.
As for the Guard boys, I'd imagine they either just happened to be at the closest table, or maybe they stood out the most because they were in uniform, or both, or something... but from what I can tell I don't think they were purposely targeted.

What kind of DEFENSIVE situation will you be shooting at someone through cover again?

There was a shooting in... Ohio?... just a couple months ago where a CCWer shot one of two thugs in the leg that were trying to pull him out of his car. Had he not had the door open, he would have been shooting through it.

I recently read about a case where a police officer was being shot at by a man using a door frame as cover... cop shot through the wall and dropped him.

Woman in Oklahoma a few weeks ago shot through her patio door at an armed man trying to break in while on the phone with a 911 operator.


Also, regarding the "DEFENSIVE situation"... you may not be the one that initiates the attack (as a CCWer, you should never be), but you should always bring the fight to them. Become the predator, make them the prey.
Perfect example of this is a well known incident (in the law enforcement community)... don't remember the officer's name, believe it was in LA. She got out of her car, in her driveway at her house, and was shot in the chest with a .357mag by some gangbanger who had followed her home. Bullet penetrated her heart and blew a tennis ball sized hole in her back. She got up and chased and gunned the guy down, called 911, and after surgery she survived and is still a cop in LA.

[Irving]

I saw the video of the Ohio one. They weren't trying to pull him out.

Cop one doesn't count. A non-cop would just disengage.

Lady shot early.

If there is room for cover, seems like 9 times out of 10, there is room to disengage.

[mcantar18c]

Personal account of the Ohio guy on his gun forum said they were trying to pull him out which prompted him to get his gun out of the glove box (did lots of things wrong there, but that's another discussion).

Lady shot early? Armed man trying to break in. Identify the threat and engage... why wait?

Cop story doesn't count. OK, lets make it a hypothetical situation. Make it your own home, you hear someone downstairs and grab that nightstand gun of yours. He sees you coming down the stairs and shoots, taking cover behind a door frame.
Disengage? I don't think so.

If there's room for cover, 9 times out of 10 there's room to disengage. You're probably right about that. But if you've already engaged, you probably had a damn good reason to... if you didn't why were you shooting in the first place?