Lady Navy Veteran Shot By Cops Accidently

[theGinsue]

And just for the record it is I and for the most part ONLY I that uphold the founders wishes.

I do as well.

I dont understand, what founders are you talking about?

He left out an apostrophe which would have made it the possessive of 1 founder. I do the same thing all of the time.

The founder of COAR15, this site, is an LEO. Out of respect for him, his wishes, and the tough job that LEO's do every day we prohibit generalized cop bashing on this site.

The staff of this site, as well as most of the members, acknowledge that cops are fallible just like the rest of us. From time to time they will make mistakes; some with dire consequences. We would hope and expect that these instances will be handled properly.

Additionally, we realize that there will be cases where some entrusted with legal authority and power will abuse that power. We know that there have been plenty of cases where these individuals receive little more than a slap on the wrist and it sickens us as much as it does any of you. This is not what our forefathers had in mind for us.

Even though we are aware than some individual cases of bad, abusive, or careless LEO's exist, this does not speak to the excellence of the majority of our LEO's and it is because of this that the Staff of this site will NOT allow general condemnation or bashing of Law Enforcement.

When individual cases occur, you may speak specifically to the facts of that case alone. If you generalize you comments to all LEO's, your post(s) will likely be deleted and you may well receive a time-out from the site.

I'm fairly certain this post clearly states the Sites position on "cop bashing". Accept this as official notice.

[Bailey Guns]

Weapon mounted lights don't "avoid" this kind of thing. They cause it. By having officers point a light at something, the gun points too. Cops using weapon mounted lights to search is a failure mode.

I couldn't disagree with this more, and it's old school thinking like this that creates alot of senseless policy that cops have to deal with. I carry three flashlights, one of which is attached to my weapon. Only an idiot would use the light attached to is gun to perform a mundayne task (i.e. searching for lost keys etc.)

Its this simple - having a weapon mounted light does not make you point your gun at what you want to illiuminate. It gives you an opportunity to illiuminate what you're pointing your gun at.

The old school having a flashlight in your off-hand method just plain sucks ass, period. Yeah, you can do all that fancy hold the light away from yoru body B.S. but you can't shoot with both hands, not to mention, what do you do with it when its time to reload. You can't do anything with your other hand and point the weapon (light on or off) in that method. Not to mention, what the hell do you do if one hand is disabled and noone came by to turn the lights on for you.

When properly trained it is just like any other piece of equipment. I don't know of a single flashlight on this planet that can make me place my finger on the trigger and squeeze off a round.

/rant

Yep. Weapon-muonted lights definitely have their place in LE and defensive use. Yes, that occasionally means a gun is sometimes pointed at someone. If that happens, stop pointing the gun at them if it's not the right person.

[Whistler]

Just want to be clear here; it is not okay to speak out generally on the near epidemic lack of accountability for Law Enforcement at every level in this country (though not specific to this case) in response to others comments and that is considered "cop-bashing"?

Law Enforcement is entrusted with great power, it is reasonable that we (The People) demand they exercise that power responsibly and be held to the highest standards of accountability in the use of that power. It is likewise reasonable to express outrage when abuse or unaccountability is perceived to have occured.

In this specific case the "power" is the legal right to be on someone else's property, armed, unannounced in the middle of the night while in the execution of their duties. The accountability is yet to be seen and we should withhold judgment regarding that aspect of this case until it is.

Nobody said the job was easy and I have great respect for those willing & able to walk that very fine line (I wouldn't do it) but I vehemently disagree that it is "just another job" and that errors can be interpreted in that manner. We're not talking about a mis-delivered package here and while legal civil recourse is available it does not adequately address customary privilege and protectionism.

These are important issues to be discussed and there needs to be some room to have that discussion without fear of being banned or censored. It is normal and natural that a discussion will progress beyond the bounds of a specific incident. Understand emotions run high on both sides of the argument but that shouldn't mean don't talk about it.

If you guys (looking at you Bailey & you 10mm-man) could refrain from being insulting maybe the mods could allow a civil discussion.

[jerrymrc]

And we have been over this topic before a hundred times. Almost to a thread they escalate. Cop did something bad, got it. Cop was stupid, got it. Now leave it alone and let everyone make up there mind.

But if left to there devices damn near every thread just circles the bowl. I sometimes just think it is better just to start deleting them instead of trying to point out the futility of arm-chair quarterbacking these types of threads.

Trust me I saw a bunch of dumb ones this week.

Just want to be clear here; it is not okay to speak out generally on the near epidemic lack of accountability for Law Enforcement at every level in this country (though not specific to this case) in response to others comments and that is considered "cop-bashing"?

When it does nothing but whip everyone into a frenzy? Thanks.

These are important issues to be discussed and there needs to be some room to have that discussion without fear of being banned or censored. It is normal and natural that a discussion will progress beyond the bounds of a specific incident. Understand emotions run high on both sides of the argument but that shouldn't mean don't talk about it.

And that is the problem. They almost to a thread get out of hand by one side or the other. This is the internet......

[Whistler]

And we have been over this topic before a hundred times. Almost to a thread they escalate. Cop did something bad, got it. Cop was stupid, got it. Now leave it alone and let everyone make up there mind.

But if left to there devices damn near every thread just circles the bowl. I sometimes just think it is better just to start deleting them instead of trying to point out the futility of arm-chair quarterbacking these types of threads.

Trust me I saw a bunch of dumb ones this week.

Don't envy trying to moderate this bunch

[Milt]

There would be a LOT less 'cop-bashing' if the profession's emphasis was shifted from 'LE' to the original American concept of 'Peace Officer'.

To me, and much of the Freedom Movement, 'LE' carries with it the implication that all 'laws', good or bad, will be blindly enforced. 'Peace officers' might be seen as exercising a higher level of judgement, putting their oaths to uphold and defend the Constitution above enforcing every asinine 'law' on the books.

[RonMexico]

I think the Marines are just pissed bc as a mil member if we shoot innocent people in a WAR ZONE or even in training you can be tried for murder or a number of crimes. They just want equal justice and would like this man to prove his innocents on trial in a court of law. Until then, we have an injustice.

[10mm-man]

I do as well.

The founder of COAR15, this site, is an LEO. Out of respect for him, his wishes, and the tough job that LEO's do every day we prohibit generalized cop bashing on this site.

I'm fairly certain this post clearly states the Sites position on "cop bashing". Accept this as official notice.

Thanks, for taking the time to explain it! Appreciated.....

I think the Marines are just pissed bc as a mil member if we shoot innocent people in a WAR ZONE or even in training you can be tried for murder or a number of crimes. They just want equal justice and would like this man to prove his innocents on trial in a court of law. Until then, we have an injustice.

Someones starting to get it!


With that I will move to another thread..... Tread lightly

[Teufelhund]

Now that I understand the rules, allow me to retort.


Since you felt a need to diagram each of the sentences in my rant, I'll reciprocate this time and I'll refrain from making generalizations. Have a seat.

Reading comprehension. It's complicated...but it can be your friend.

And I'd wager I've seen firsthand and suffered with more victims of crime than you can imagine.

You forgot to include the rest of your quote:

The deputy here fucked up. . . They're humans. They make mistakes.

You always jump to defend the LE when these threads come up. When I said you side with LE, I meant your first instinct always seems to be to take it easy on them because "they're only human," not that you said he was right.

I am sure you lived through horrendous ordeals as a LEO. Look, I have a lot of respect for anyone able to put up with the day-after-day annoying, tedious, stressful, or terrifying situations that must come with being a cop. It seems to me to be an inherently thankless job. So let me thank you and all the other LEOs here for the good work you've done. That's not BS. I don't hate cops. I just feel like the extraordinary power they are entrusted with should also carry a higher level of responsibility, standards, and most certainly accountability.

First...this isn't misconduct.

mis·con·duct [n. mis-kon-duhkt; v. mis-kuhn-duhkt]
noun
1. improper conduct; wrong behavior.
2. unlawful conduct by an official in regard to his or her office, or by a person in the administration of justice, such as a lawyer, witness, or juror; malfeasance.

What does your dictionary say it means?

Second... WTF? A cop shoots someone and that's routinely overlooked? I don't think so.

No one abused their power in this instance.

I said "this kind of misconduct," e.g. the stories we keep hearing about cops shooting people's dogs, arresting civilians without charge for speaking out against the government, setting up an illegal dragnet on a busy street to catch a bank robber, shooting bystanders while engaging an active shooter, etc. . . and two of those were just this week. Do you think there will be any disciplinary action for the officers who participated in the illegal detention of an American citizen? Naw, I'm sure it's fine because someone told them to do it. Do you suppose there will be any action at all taken against the officers in NY who shot eight bystanders? We most likely won't ever hear about it again.

There were two cops on the scene in this instance. When one assaulted an innocent civilian with a deadly weapon, why didn't the other officer arrest him on the spot? Why was he allowed to just go about his day? Why is he on paid vacation instead? If that's not blatant abuse of power in your eyes, you've just got blinders on. Can you imagine a civilian shooting someone and being allowed to just carry on without being cuffed and tossed into a squad car?

The case has been handed over to the local prosecuting attorney for review. For crying out loud...did you even read the article? And by the way, here's a lesson in Criminal Justice 101: there is no police supervisor who's going to be put in charge of officer discipline when that officer mistakenly shoots someone. Are you serious? You're bitching about officer "misconduct" and "abuse of power" in a case where those two things are nonexistent but then you want the police officer's supervisor to "discipline" him rather than have the officer's actions investigated by the DA? Really?

Your version of "what can be done about it" is that someone may, at some point charge him with criminal negligence, or the civilian has the option for civil suit.

It should not be the duty of the public, via civil suit, to ensure LE conduct themselves properly. Unless there is some question in his immediate supervisor's mind as to if he actually pulled the trigger, regardless of intent, he should have been fired forthwith. Losing your job for doing it wrong is not a criminal sentence, nor is it mutually exclusive with the legal process; it is the same standard the rest of us are held to. He can come to trial later, like anyone else who is charged with a major crime - in an orange jumpsuit.

Sounds like you have enough outrage for everyone. Yes...he mistakenly shot someone.

Translation: attempted murder, or how about assault with a deadly weapon?

Yes...he's on administrative leave.

Translation: paid vacation. For shooting a civilian.

But, just from that brief article, I seriously doubt there was any criminal intent. Criminal negligence? Maybe. That's what investigations and trials are for.

I see. So when this cop accidentally shot someone, it was "criminal negligence (maybe)," but if a civilian accidentally shoots someone, it's called "assault with a deadly weapon" and he goes to prison, do not pass GO. Thanks for clarifying the double-standard for us.

What is sounds like to me is you have a serious hard-on for law enforcement. You also appear to have not a single clue how the justice system actually works. From what you're saying, you want our entire system of laws and justice suspended when a cop screws up because you're outraged. Screw the constitution and the cop's rights...you know, like a trial and so forth. And then you have the nerve to complain about our country being a police state?

This just happened on Sun. What do you want them to do? Just find him guilty without a trial? That what it sounds like. Investigations take time. Nobody cares that you're outraged. Most people are far more reasonable and trust the system to work.

Like I said before, I don't hate cops. I do get pissed off when I see stories like this. If you didn't have your particular bias, it would piss you off like the rest of us.

The system doesn't work; it is broken. If you still trust it to, I may as well be talking to the mouse pad on my desk.

I didn't say hang him in the town square tomorrow. I said he should be held accountable. Who's being a drama queen now?

[theGinsue]

When you see case's where you believe an officer isn't being held accountable for their inaroriae actions, call the Mayors office and the City Counsel to complain. Use facts, not emotions to point out the double standards. This is how you can fix the system. If your complaints go unaddressed, run for City Counsel to work from the inside to make a difference. If the issues are systemic, you have to change the system to correct them. Realize that most all Mayors and City Counsel rep's are politicians who have lost track of doing what is right to instead do what is politically expedient - few will be willing to listen to you so you'll have to take the issue to the people at the polls.

ETA: Keep in mind that ALL shootings go before a Grand Jury to determine if any wrong-doing occurred. It's the GJ that determines if legal action will take place.