Person very familiar with NFA items

[Gunner]

If I were to sbr an AR could I use my Lower now. Fill out a form 1.then buy an sbr upper out do you some how fill out the paper work for the upper

[275RLTW]

If I were to sbr an AR could I use my Lower now. Fill out a form 1.then buy an sbr upper out do you some how fill out the paper work for the upper

No, you would be creating and registering the lower as an SBR lower. It can be any rifle/pistol lower you currently have or a new rifle one (since you cannot legally purchase a new pistol lower from a dealer). The upper is just an accessory. You can purchase a short upper at any time (after 18) however you cannot mount it to the lower until the Form 1 is approved and the lower engraved with the required info. You can have several short uppers of various lengths that you can temporarily interchange on the registered SBR lower provided it does not make the OAL less than the registered length on the Form 1. For example, if you have an SBR registered with a 7" bbl on the Form 1, then you can have 7", 10", 12", and 14.5" short uppers (or longer if you wish) to mount on that single lower provided that you notify NFA Branch in writing of you make a permanent change (longer) to the OAL. Simple process.

[O2HeN2]

You can have several short uppers of various lengths that you can temporarily interchange on the registered SBR lower provided it does not make the OAL less than the registered length on the Form 1.

No, an SBR is an SBR. You can put a barrel of any length on an SBR, longer or shorter than what's on the form 1. As you stated, if you permanently change the configuration as written on the form 1 (read: you sell the original parts and don't have other parts to assemble to the same dimensions/caliber) you submit paperwork to amend the form 1.

Here's the typical process for SBRing an AR15 lower. We'll start with step 0:

0: Make sure you have "long" uppers for each and every "normal" lower you own. The "normal" lower you're going to SBR will be a "normal" lower until you get the Form 1 back from the ATF. For example. Lets say I own 3 ARs and I'm going to make one an SBR. I should possess 3 or more "long" uppers before I get a "short" upper (and you don't mount the short upper until you get your form 1 back). Basically you want to possess the parts such that you can put everything together in legal configurations. If you have 3 normal lowers, 2 long uppers and 1 short upper, you can't assemble everything in a legal configuration, and you can get nabbed for "constructive intent" -- that's not exactly the right term, but I forget what the correct legal term is at the moment. Just always make sure that the number of long uppers in your possession is greater than or equal to the number of normal lowers in your possession. Last example, if you have 2 normal lowers, 2 long uppers, 1 SBR and 453 short uppers you're fine, because you have enough long uppers that can be legally assembled with the normal lowers.

1: Make sure the lower is something that you want to make into an SBR. Don't just SBR a brand-new stripped receiver in case there's some defect (screwed up holes, etc.). Assemble it, make sure it runs and you're happy with it.

2: Engrave it. This way if the engraver screws up, you don't have a crappy looking re-do on your SBR.

3: Get your SBR upper (see step 0).

4: Determine barrel length. I always like to measure. Put a bolt in the upper, drop a dowel down the bore and measure it to the muzzle.

5: Determine overall length. Here you have an issue -- you can't assemble it to determine the overall length, but you can measure the lower from the the buttstock (extended) to the hinge pin, and the upper from the hinge pin hole to the muzzle and do some addition.

6: Fill out the form 1, cough up $200 and wait for six months.

O2

[275RLTW]

No, an SBR is an SBR. You can put a barrel of any length on an SBR, longer or shorter than what's on the form 1. As you stated, if you permanently change the configuration as written on the form 1 (read: you sell the original parts and don't have other parts to assemble to the same dimensions/caliber) you submit paperwork to amend the form 1.

Incorrect. You cannot go shorter than what you have listed on the Form 1. ou would have to request permission to modify the original Form 1. You can always go longer, but not shorter. And an SBR lower created on a Form 1 can be made back into a "regular" lower (non NFA) again if you so wished.

And a correction to my earlier post:

You cannot purchase the short upper(s) until a Form 1 has been sent in and the firearm registered. http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nati...art-possession

[Circuits]

Incorrect. You cannot go shorter than what you have listed on the Form 1. You can always go longer, but not shorter.

Incorrect. You can go shorter if you want. The value listed on the Form 1 is how you intend to build it, initially - but if you later change it, you can go shorter or longer, change calibers but leave the length the same, etc. SBR is SBR.

[275RLTW]

Incorrect. You can go shorter if you want. The value listed on the Form 1 is how you intend to build it, initially - but if you later change it, you can go shorter or longer, change calibers but leave the length the same, etc. SBR is SBR.

I was told otherwise by Earnest @ NFA. I will call to confirm.

[O2HeN2]

I was told otherwise by Earnest @ NFA. I will call to confirm.

If you call, ask for a pointer to a document, memo or ruling that specifies that restriction. I have found that just because an ATF agent says so doesn't mean it's so.

If it isn't written down and available to the public, the restriction doesn't exist.

Example: My engraver here in the springs (T&T) has had ATF agents standing with him while re-engraving recovered firearms with "COLO SPGS" despite the ATF documents clearly saying "postal abbreviations only" of which "COLO" is not.

O2

[O2HeN2]

You cannot purchase the short upper(s) until a Form 1 has been sent in and the firearm registered. http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nati...art-possession

Wrong again. I'm not sure which Q&A you were pointing to specifically but I don't see anything that supports your statement.

In addition, your statement is refuted by the Thompson Center Contender Carbine decision that (once fought in court), came to the conclusion that just possessing the parts to make an SBR is not illegal unless there's no way to assemble the parts in a legal configuration (my step 0, above). So you could legally possess the rifle stock, a pistol stock, a carbine (long) barrel and a pistol barrel quite legally.

So using the Contender as an example, you can possess the parts to make a SBR (rifle stock and pistol barrel) but because you also have the rifle barrel you can configure the Contender in as a legal rifle so you're OK. Just don't sell the rifle barrel!

What the court case pivoted on was the ATF claim that if you had the parts to make an SBR you were in possession of an SBR. What the TC lawyer successfully argued is that if the ATF position was to stand, possession of a rifle and a hacksaw would be possession of an SBR.

And lastly of course, if you can't possess the short upper until your form 1 clears, how are you supposed to measure it in order to fill out the form 1 in the first place?

O2

[275RLTW]

Wrong again. I'm not sure which Q&A you were pointing to specifically but I don't see anything that supports your statement.

"A FFL (Type-7 or Type-10) who pays the Special Occupational Tax (SOT) may possess parts required to assemble NFA firearms. A non-licensee or FFL who has not paid the SOT is required to register any NFA firearm via an ATF Form 1 (5320.1) prior to acquisition of the parts required to assemble such firearm."

Untill a ruling and publication are released, the previous rulings are in effect.


In addition, your statement is refuted by the Thompson Center Contender Carbine decision that (once fought in court), came to the conclusion that just posessing the parts to make an SBR is not illegal unless there's no way to assemble the parts in a legal configuration (my step 0, above). So you could legally posess the rifle stock, a pistol stock, a carbine (long) barrel and a pistol barrel quite legally.

So using the Contender as an example, you can posess the parts to make a SBR (rifle stock and pistol barrel) but because you also have the rifle barrel you can configure the Contender in as a legal rifle so you're OK. Just don't sell the rifle barrel!

What the court case pivoted on was the ATF claim that if you had the parts to make an SBR you were in possession of an SBR. What the TC lawyer successfully argued is that if the ATF position was to stand, possession of a rifle and a hacksaw would be possession of an SBR.

And lastly of course, if you can't posess the short upper until your form 1 clears, how are you supposed to measure it in order to fill out the form 1 in the first place?

OAL of a 14.5" - the difference in barrel lengths....(+/- any variances made to the stock as well)

• Buttstock Closed - 29.75 inches
• Buttstock Open - 33.00 inches

(from FM 3.22-9)

O2

[275RLTW]

No, an SBR is an SBR. You can put a barrel of any length on an SBR, longer or shorter than what's on the form 1. As you stated, if you permanently change the configuration as written on the form 1 (read: you sell the original parts and don't have other parts to assemble to the same dimensions/caliber) you submit paperwork to amend the form 1.

Here's the typical process for SBRing an AR15 lower. We'll start with step 0:

0: Make sure you have "long" uppers for each and every "normal" lower you own. The "normal" lower you're going to SBR will be a "normal" lower until you get the Form 1 back from the ATF. For example. Lets say I own 3 ARs and I'm going to make one an SBR. I should possess 3 or more "long" uppers before I get a "short" upper (and you don't mount the short upper until you get your form 1 back). Basically you want to possess the parts such that you can put everything together in legal configurations. If you have 3 normal lowers, 2 long uppers and 1 short upper, you can't assemble everything in a legal configuration, and you can get nabbed for "constructive intent" -- that's not exactly the right term, but I forget what the correct legal term is at the moment. Just always make sure that the number of long uppers in your possession is greater than or equal to the number of normal lowers in your possession. Last example, if you have 2 normal lowers, 2 long uppers, 1 SBR and 453 short uppers you're fine, because you have enough long uppers that can be legally assembled with the normal lowers.

No. You can have as many lowers as you want and no not need to have a "long" upper for each one.

1: Make sure the lower is something that you want to make into an SBR. Don't just SBR a brand-new stripped receiver in case there's some defect (screwed up holes, etc.). Assemble it, make sure it runs and you're happy with it.

2: Engrave it. This way if the engraver screws up, you don't have a crappy looking re-do on your SBR.

You have to wait until the Form 1 is approved BEFORE engraving the lower. Adding your name/city on the lower is considered one of the final steps in the mfg. of the NFA item. Basically, you cannot serialize something until you mfg it and you cannot build it until you obtain approval from NFA via Form 1 & tax stamp.

3: Get your SBR upper (see step 0).

4: Determine barrel length. I always like to measure. Put a bolt in the upper, drop a dowel down the bore and measure it to the muzzle.

5: Determine overall length. Here you have an issue -- you can't assemble it to determine the overall length, but you can measure the lower from the the buttstock (extended) to the hinge pin, and the upper from the hinge pin hole to the muzzle and do some addition.

6: Fill out the form 1, cough up $200 and wait for six months.

Do this BEFORE purchasing the short upper unless you have a pistol lower in posession, per NFA guidelines mentioned in link (earlier post).

O2