Romney: "Obama supporters are dependent on the government"

[dwalker460]

Really, FastMan? How would that work?

Well, FastMan, with a consumption tax the price the consumer would have to pay for domestically produced goods would change very little. The producer would be able to drop the price of his goods because he/she would not have to charge for the cost of taxation he/she was burdened with before. They could drop the price of the product and still end up with the same amount of bottom line profit. For the consumer, the consumption tax added on at the store would bring the end price of the product being bought back to about the same level it was in the old system.

But FastMan, how does that help the domestic producer compete with oversees producers?

Think about it, FastMan. The oversees producer is still burdened with the corporate tax imposed by their country, which he/she has to account for in the price they charge for the goods they produce. Say their nations corporate tax rate is 20 percent. That's an extra 20 percent fixed cost they have to tack on the price of their product that the American producer does not have to do. Advantage our guys!

Cool, I get it. Thanks FastMan!

No problem.

That will never happen. They COULD drop prices, but historically that doesnt happen. They WILL charge what the market will bear. Period, end of list. WHY does a car cost $20K AVERAGE now? Because people will pay it. Plain and simple.

Foreign companies are not our issue. We are still the largest manufacturing nation on the planet and the largest issue to corporate success in this country is that the general public hates to see corporate success. EVEN WHEN THEY WORK FOR THE COMPANY, many citizens hate the fact thier company succeeds because they believe they "deserve" a larger "peice of the pie" and that the company is getting rich on their backs. Um yeah, thats right. Someone had an idea, then worked hard to come up with a plan, line up resources, took some risk and despite the odds managed to succeed. The people who backed them by investing money see a profit, sometimes very large profits. Does that mean that they should then share the wealth with all members of the company? Maybe, maybe not. But it is seriously screwed up to hate a company that pays a wage for being "an evil corporation". THEY PROVIDE THE JOBS. Seriously, if you dont like what you are paid, quit and go somewhere else and see how green the grass is. Whats that? The going wage for your particular job is X and you were making more than the average and now your screwed because you didnt realize how good you had it? Tough. Starve. Whats that? Your job doesnt pay for you to roll around in a new 60K diesel truck and have a new LED TV in every room of your McMansion that you paid 1.5times to much for and now your credit sucks and you cant take a vacation to the Fiji Islands??? Tough, starve and learn to live within your means.

Seriously the problem with this country is not white collar, its blue collar and I say that as a blue collar who hires and fires wastes of humanity on a regular basis.

[FastMan]

That will never happen. They COULD drop prices, but historically that doesnt happen.

Not true. If a company over charges for their product it leaves room for a competitor to come in and undercut them. It's the beauty of a capitalism. Consumers get the best prices, while businesses still can make a fair profit.

[dwalker460]

Not true. If a company over charges for their product it leaves room for a competitor to come in and undercut them. It's the beauty of a capitalism. Consumers get the best prices, while businesses still can make a fair profit.

Again, doesnt happen. A seller sells for what the market will bear. That is capitalism. Yeah, there might be a price war or two, but lets look at an example-

three years-ish ago a stripped lower reciever was $60-80 bucks, with premium ones in the $115-ish range. Currently prices are in the $115 range for a standard, and in the 200-300 range for a "premium" receiver. Hiuh, well there are more manufacturers now, and lots of competition. Labor costs are minorly down due to a large pool of trained workers out there. Material costs are up slightly as metal prices are at an all time high, but again, thats minor in the grand scheme. Hmmmm.....

Wait- I know.... the market will bear the cost increase because the demand is there. I will pay the increased (almost double) cost because I want a lower receiver. Now, using your logic, SAA or PSA or similar COULD sell thier stripped lowers at $65 apeaice and corner the market, BUT they do not, because they can sell for $115 and sell every single one they make, and thats what they are going to do.

Example 2-
Troy rails are $180-200 or more, YHM are $150-180, sometimes less. Daniel Defense are a lot more. They all do the same job and are IMHO about the same "quality", however the DD ones will always bring more because of the percieved value. Could all these companies charge less? Possibly, but why would they? They are in business to make a profit, and they do, so unless something changes they will not alter thier pricing structure.

Thats capitalism my boy, pure and simple. Your competiton model only works in theory, never in practice.

[HoneyBadger]

Thats capitalism my boy, pure and simple.

You forgot the part where there are numerous other companies that produce quality products that meet the needs of consumers. That, my boy, is capitalism.

Also, for your lower receiver example, you failed to account for inflation, rising manufacturing costs, rising raw material costs, etc. You acknowledged that metal prices are at an all time high, but failed to account for it.

Same story for gasoline. The cost of gas has been actually rising LESS than the estimated actual inflation, which means that whether it agrees with the point you're trying to make or not, gas has gotten cheaper over the past decade.

[dwalker460]

You forgot the part where there are numerous other companies that produce quality products that meet the needs of consumers. That, my boy, is capitalism.

Also, for your lower receiver example, you failed to account for inflation, rising manufacturing costs, rising raw material costs, etc. You acknowledged that metal prices are at an all time high, but failed to account for it.

Same story for gasoline. The cost of gas has been actually rising LESS than the estimated actual inflation, which means that whether it agrees with the point you're trying to make or not, gas has gotten cheaper over the past decade.

No, I addressed that there are more manufacturers out there now, as well as labor costs, which is a large chunk of manufacturing costs. But I did not account for higher taxes, workers benefit costs, etc., and I did mention that the higher cost of metal had a minor impact on cost. I maintain that IF there was a reason for them to that many sellers of lowers and other parts could drop prices substantially, but they dont because the market will bear what they are charging.

Anyway, we have drifted pretty far off topic, but good discussion!

[FastMan]

Thats capitalism my boy, pure and simple. Your competiton model only works in theory, never in practice.

The competition model doesn't work, aye? I

It's the reason China and others have been kicking our ass in manufacturing. They can sell the same products for cheaper prices. Our domestic producers have been struggling to compete, and jobs have been disappearing because of it. It's about time we gave them a hand, instead of attacking and punishing them, like Obama revels in doing. Everyone would benefit.

[Teufelhund]

EVEN WHEN THEY WORK FOR THE COMPANY, many citizens hate the fact thier company succeeds because they believe they "deserve" a larger "peice of the pie" and that the company is getting rich on their backs.

This statement above is simply not true of anyone smart enough to think beyond themselves. I think you may be just a tad too emotional about this subject and it is causing you to not be able to see the forest for the trees.

I admittedly do not have the knowledge of tax code to be able to debate you on the level you're attempting; if I did, I would not have to pay a CPA to do my taxes every year. I should add that I really have no desire to learn the tax code to that level.

I'll stop using the word "loophole" since everyone seems to be getting their panties in a twist over it; it really is unimportant to the argument. What you folks who are throwing out all these percentages and acronyms seem to be failing to see is the net result of our current system: I (middle class) pay a higher percentage in taxes than the rich, the business entities, and the poor. I don't care how you spin it or try to defend it, the breaks, incentives, credits, etc. are causing the middle class to be burdened with financially supporting the entire country, and it isn't working.