DOMA/Prop 8 decisions

[Rabid]

Maybe this will help you understand the difference:

From: http://www.theamericanconservative.c...ghts-struggle/

...

This is not to say that gay Americans who wish to have the full benefits of marriage afforded to heterosexual couples don’t face adversity. That’s a major part of the current debate. But it is to say that any hardship they face can’t compare to what black Americans faced 50 or 150 years ago.

There have been instances during the gay-rights movement that arguably could be compared to the black civil rights struggle, like the Stonewall riots of the 1960s or Matthew Shepard murder in 1998. Suicides and other problems related to public attitudes about homosexuality have also unquestionably been a horrible ordeal. Still, with the possible exception of the mistreatment of Native Americans, there has been nothing quite like the systematic exploitation and institutional degradation experienced by earlier black Americans.

My purpose here is not to belittle the fight for gay marriage, only to note that those who keep attempting to draw a reasonable comparison to the struggle of African-Americans are in many ways belittling the black experience in the United States.

It is still a fight for rights, period.

[Ronin13]

Well obviously MLK did not get shot for gay rights. To say they are not akin (of similar character) to each other is just plain wrong by definition. Gay rights, civil rights, womans rights and going all the way back to our original fight for our rights, the war of Independence, are akin. If that offends you, i am sorry.

Not offended, because that's false. It's deceptive, dishonest, and unfair to equate gay rights to the civil rights movement. No one is denying gays voting rights. No one is saying gays can't drink from the same water fountains as straights, no one is lynching gays (save for very rare and extreme examples)... this isn't about equality and justice in life- they are fighting for ONE tiny facet of American life, and one that isn't even guaranteed anywhere. Not saying I don't support their plight, I just don't support their dishonest campaign where they try to deceive and bully opponents by equating those who don't agree with racists or even the KKK. In other words, as Davsel quoted...

Maybe this will help you understand the difference:

From: http://www.theamericanconservative.c...ghts-struggle/

...

This is not to say that gay Americans who wish to have the full benefits of marriage afforded to heterosexual couples don’t face adversity. That’s a major part of the current debate. But it is to say that any hardship they face can’t compare to what black Americans faced 50 or 150 years ago.

There have been instances during the gay-rights movement that arguably could be compared to the black civil rights struggle, like the Stonewall riots of the 1960s or Matthew Shepard murder in 1998. Suicides and other problems related to public attitudes about homosexuality have also unquestionably been a horrible ordeal. Still, with the possible exception of the mistreatment of Native Americans, there has been nothing quite like the systematic exploitation and institutional degradation experienced by earlier black Americans.

My purpose here is not to belittle the fight for gay marriage, only to note that those who keep attempting to draw a reasonable comparison to the struggle of African-Americans are in many ways belittling the black experience in the United States.

THIS!

[Rabid]

An argument I've heard often is that it doesn't affect me in any way, so I shouldn't worry about it. Why do I care?

I saw a great response from someone. "Dog fighting doesn't affect me in any way either, but it's not legal for moral reasons."

In truth, I don't care at all, except virtually all gays are liberal, and I am in favor of people standing in the way of liberals getting anything they want, up to and including oxygen.

Republicans made them liberals by not excepting them. If anything having this issue off the table is going to help win Republicans seats in political races.

[generalmeow]

Republicans made them liberals but not excepting them. If anything having this issue off the table is going to help win Republicans seats in political races.

Has any argument ever ended without "It's the republican's fault"? Is it possible? For once? Please?

I'm proof that you can be conservative and not be a Republican. You don't even have to like the Republican party (I don't). So how does not liking Republicans make you a liberal now? Republicans drove me away, and it has never crossed my mind to consider becoming liberal.

[Rabid]

Not offended, because that's false. It's deceptive, dishonest, and unfair to equate gay rights to the civil rights movement. No one is denying gays voting rights. No one is saying gays can't drink from the same water fountains as straights, no one is lynching gays (save for very rare and extreme examples)... this isn't about equality and justice in life- they are fighting for ONE tiny facet of American life, and one that isn't even guaranteed anywhere. Not saying I don't support their plight, I just don't support their dishonest campaign where they try to deceive and bully opponents by equating those who don't agree with racists or even the KKK. In other words, as Davsel quoted...

THIS!

Are they fighting for a right, maybe the right that all men are equal? Yes they are. It is not a false statement because all i listed were akin in fighting for their rights. Just because it is for one right instead of a lot of rights makes it no less important.

The government decided to have marriage licenses. I am with you on this one and think there is no reason for it and if we do have them call it a civil union licenses, a marriage is for the church to decide. I get a rather uneasy feeling when i see two men kiss in public but i know it is not for me to say they are not equal. Not allowing them to a marriage license that a hedro-sexual couple can get is not equal. As i see it when the government decided to have a marriage license the word marriage gained a separate meaning, that meaning being "union" because there is a separation between church and state.

[Rabid]

Has any argument ever ended without "It's the republican's fault"? Is it possible? For once? Please?

I'm proof that you can be conservative and not be a Republican. You don't even have to like the Republican party (I don't). So how does not liking Republicans make you a liberal now? Republicans drove me away, and it has never crossed my mind to consider becoming liberal.

It is their fault that the gays are for the most part liberal but not their fault for the whole argument. All i am saying is we have a 2 party system and for the most part a vote on a 3rd party is generally seen as a waste. Also i am not blaming all Republican's but they are the party that generally is seen as against gay rights, if your gay and being able to marry is important to you i doubt you will vote for a republican.

[generalmeow]

It is their fault that the gays are for the most part liberal but not their fault for the whole argument. All i am saying is we have a 2 party system and for the most part a vote on a 3rd party is generally seen as a waste. Also i am not blaming all Republican's but they are the party that generally is seen as against gay rights, if your gay and being able to marry is important to you i doubt you will vote for a republican.

You don't seem to grasp the difference between Republican and Conservative. You're saying because Republicans piss them off, they are now liberal. That's ridiculous. If you're conservative, but don't like Republicans, you don't become a liberal. That's the last thing you'd do.

All else being equal, you'd expect gays to be Libertarian. But the thing that makes you gay also must make you liberal. Liberals act on emotion, and the gays I've known are pretty emotional compared to straight guys I know. So that makes sense. Women also tend to lean left.

[Ronin13]

Are they fighting for a right, maybe the right that all men are equal? Yes they are. It is not a false statement because all i listed were akin in fighting for their rights. Just because it is for one right instead of a lot of rights makes it no less important.

But you're taking my argument out of context. I'm not saying that it's not about rights and equality, I'm simply saying it's a bullying tactic to equate the civil rights movement to the gay rights movement. Basically it's like saying "You don't agree with me? You don't think the same way? You're a bigot and a racist!" It's wholly not fair and very underhanded tactics. It leaves nothing open for differences of opinions because one side has already cast the differing view as evil and mean spirited instead of just different. That's all it is. I don't care if someone is gay or not, I personally do not care who loves who- but when you bully and berate differing opinions simply for being different (acting upon those opinions is a completely different matter as not all who disagree with gay rights are actually doing anything to infringe upon them) that is where my opinion of that person is reduced to near nothing, and I take issue with it. It's dishonest and rude. Plus when their opinions are forced on others and others are made to "accept" something they don't agree with, I also take issue.

It is their fault that the gays are for the most part liberal but not their fault for the whole argument. All i am saying is we have a 2 party system and for the most part a vote on a 3rd party is generally seen as a waste. Also i am not blaming all Republican's but they are the party that generally is seen as against gay rights, if your gay and being able to marry is important to you i doubt you will vote for a republican.

You again fail to realize the republican party (traditionally) is viewed as the more "traditionally christian" party. Most Christian people view marriage as being a man and a woman and same sex couples should never be defined as 'married.' Most Christians wouldn't care if you called it something else, just don't call it "marriage."

[Rabid]

You don't seem to grasp the difference between Republican and Conservative. You're saying because Republicans piss them off, they are now liberal. That's ridiculous. If you're conservative, but don't like Republicans, you don't become a liberal. That's the last thing you'd do.

All else being equal, you'd expect gays to be Libertarian. But the thing that makes you gay also must make you liberal. Liberals act on emotion, and the gays I've known are pretty emotional compared to straight guys I know. So that makes sense. Women also tend to lean left.

I grasp the difference quite well and yes liberal or not in a 2 party system the Republicans pissed them off so they vote for a Democrat.

[Rabid]

But you're taking my argument out of context. I'm not saying that it's not about rights and equality, I'm simply saying it's a bullying tactic to equate the civil rights movement to the gay rights movement. Basically it's like saying "You don't agree with me? You don't think the same way? You're a bigot and a racist!" It's wholly not fair and very underhanded tactics. It leaves nothing open for differences of opinions because one side has already cast the differing view as evil and mean spirited instead of just different. That's all it is. I don't care if someone is gay or not, I personally do not care who loves who- but when you bully and berate differing opinions simply for being different (acting upon those opinions is a completely different matter as not all who disagree with gay rights are actually doing anything to infringe upon them) that is where my opinion of that person is reduced to near nothing, and I take issue with it. It's dishonest and rude. Plus when their opinions are forced on others and others are made to "accept" something they don't agree with, I also take issue.

You again fail to realize the republican party (traditionally) is viewed as the more "traditionally christian" party. Most Christian people view marriage as being a man and a woman and same sex couples should never be defined as 'married.' Most Christians wouldn't care if you called it something else, just don't call it "marriage."

I will agree with what you have said for the most part but with a one liner like this:

To anyone who claims that the gay rights issue is akin to the civil rights fight of the 50's, 60's and 70's... If this offends you, tough...

It is hard to understand that was the point you were making in the first place.


I know it is viewed as the more "traditionally christian" party but we are not living in a separate but equal world anymore so i can see the frustration on both sides.