Waterboarding...

[Hoosier]

So, the entire "moral highground" concept goes out the door. Terrorists can justify terrorism, since anything goes?

Some percentage of the people picked up will be innocent. Should they be murdered as well?

There is a moral difference between combat on the battlefield, and putting a bullet in the head of someone who isn't posing you a risk. Kept alive in solitary at ADX Florence they may have a change of heart and decide to help us, even 10 years later we could gain insight into the mindset that is our real enemy. At worst, they hold their beliefs until the day they die, unable to communicate with others.

I mean, I can understand saying what you're saying when you're pissed off because they just dropped some of our buildings. In the rational light of day, with reasoning and logic, I don't see how to defend your position.

H.

[BigBear]

So, the entire "moral highground" concept goes out the door. Terrorists can justify terrorism, since anything goes?

Some percentage of the people picked up will be innocent. Should they be murdered as well?

There is a moral difference between combat on the battlefield, and putting a bullet in the head of someone who isn't posing you a risk.

I see your point. Terrorists do justify what they do. They believe in it and act upon it. If innocent people are picked up then they are not so innocent anymore. I TOTALLY agree with you on the moral difference between the battelfield and someone who walks in off the street confessing. On the battlefield anything goes, line em up when caught and shoot. If someone walks in off the street and confesses, etc, then yeah you can do all the holding, trying to befriend and all that crap, but they should still be killed. They may have a sincere change of heart. The guys on the battelfield though... no deal.

Maybe it is some "fantasy" as Jake so describes but that's how I think.

[Hoosier]

"On the battlefield anything goes, line em up when caught and shoot."

So when our troops get captured, they should be lined up and shot, and we're just like, "Ok, that's fair and reasonable."

I mean, you have to be able to perceive the situation from points of view other than your own. Understanding how they perceive it will allow you some insight into how they'll respond. We don't torture, because We. Are. Better. Than They Are. We use to be able to say it. Now we're just hypocrites.

[BigBear]

Unfortunately, yes. That is the job we sign up for.[/COLOR]

I mean, you have to be able to perceive the situation from points of view other than your own. I can and do, and thus my often unpopular stances. Understanding how they perceive it will allow you some insight into how they'll respond. I understand and percieve in the radical muslim enviroment, Americans are infidels... no amount of money, treating prisoners nice, etc will change that. Their culture keeps feuds and grudges for generations upon generations. They will not stop until total defeat. We don't torture, because We. Are. Better. Than They Are. We use to be able to say it. Now we're just hypocrites. America is a hypocritical, double standard nation. I can still say proudly though that we ARE better than they are.

How much longer that will last... who knows.

[ChunkyMonkey]

I grew up within one of those fundamentalist enclavements. I woke up every morning watching kid cartoons that taught that killing infidels is a good thing, I was taught to marry infidel women and to assimilate them into islamic culture. I like to assume I know islamic fundamentalist better than most people I know here.

To think that we are better so we should not use a certain method that is considered torture by some is almost self fish.

These fundamentalist would fight you, lost the battle, dropped their weapons, asked for your forgiveness (or currently in afghan, walk away from their position), only to kill you on the very next opportunity. Most of them have been brainwashed and fail to see what we are doing is 'better' or more 'humane.' In their eyes - these are our weaknesses!

Perhaps I have witnessed too much, but I personally HATE extremists and will not treat them as equal human being as they do not see me as one.

My 2 cent!

[SA Friday]

I grew up within one of those fundamentalist enclavements. I woke up every morning watching kid cartoons that taught that killing infidels is a good thing, I was taught to marry infidel women and to assimilate them into islamic culture. I like to assume I know islamic fundamentalist better than most people I know here.

To think that we are better so we should not use a certain method that is considered torture by some is almost self fish.

These fundamentalist would fight you, lost the battle, dropped their weapons, asked for your forgiveness (or currently in afghan, walk away from their position), only to kill you on the very next opportunity. Most of them have been brainwashed and fail to see what we are doing is 'better' or more 'humane.' In their eyes - these are our weaknesses!

Perhaps I have witnessed too much, but I personally HATE extremists and will not treat them as equal human being as they do not see me as one.

My 2 cent!

This is very interesting stuff, and quite a perspective on how a child becomes an adult willing to fight the muslim extremist cause. I must respectfully point out it has no insight as to what interrogation tactics are effective for the various personalities the interrogators run into when attempting to extract information. Once again, I'll point out the simple fact that we cannot control their actions or philosophies, but we can control ours. It's foolhardy to believe humanity is a weakness. It's humane treatment that pursuades the fence sitters and weakens the terrorist and insurgent movements. Even the most poor and uneducated villager can see the difference between a group that identifies their mistakes and shortcomings and addresses them vs 'en shalla'. I saw it every time I drove into a village.

Hate is both a powerful motivator and a dangerous tool. I personally hated one target in the year and a half I lived in the SWA. We never caught him, and I still feel the failure. The difference is I focused on the personality of the individual and was very careful to not let emotions come into play with groups as a whole. Your persepective of right and wrong when you hate groups of people indiscriminately becomes blurred. You eventually only see the group, dehumanize the group, and ta-daa; you end up with Abu Ghraib prison scandals.

Abu Ghraib really hurt the war effort. Regardless of how anyone feels about it, the damage done from that whole incident was unarguably motivation for the opposition. Iraq and Afghanistan are counterintelligence wars. There are no uniformed troops opposing us and there are no war fronts. Without the ability to collect and identify info on the terrorists and insurgents, we are relegated to mass strikes with collateral damage to civilians instead of surgical strikes which enforce our humanity and intentions to the local populas. Those fence sitters are the information stream for us.

There is a lot to this discussion. It's a lot more than just should we or shouldn't we use water boarding as an interrogation tactic. As I've posted before, water boarding is a tool and has it specific place and time. But be really careful about generalities and rushing to the simple answers in this matter. It's not as simple as tit-for-tat. There are real lives at stake in these matters. That requires a lot of deep critical thinking.

[ChunkyMonkey]

SA Friday, IMHO, insurgent fighters are extremely different from being extremists or terrorists. The first can be won over with security, good deeds, and money. The later is a complete lost cause. Since you had been there, you can testify on this better than me.

As you said "The time and place for these tactics are very very very rare" Rare indeed, but it is legal and it remains one of the interrogation tools, and I completely agree with that!

[jake]

I understand and percieve in the radical muslim enviroment, Americans are infidels... no amount of money, treating prisoners nice, etc will change that. Their culture keeps feuds and grudges for generations upon generations. They will not stop until total defeat.

It's not about them though, is it? As you say, their attitudes will never change, no matter what we do. So we fight them hard, we prosecute them on the battlefield, we incarcerate them until they're no longer a threat.

It's about the people with no particular axe to grind who just want to get on with their lives. I'm personally of the opinion that if we go around torturing, executing and behaving in exactly the way that the radicals say we behave, we're not going to do much to convince moderate Muslims that we have anything to offer them.

It took the British 200 years to realise that if you treat people like crap, eventually they'll reach their breaking point and now it seems like America is the only country more universally hated than Britain (which means if I ever go on holiday to Afghanistan I'm doubly screwed )

[ChunkyMonkey]

It's about the people with no particular axe to grind who just want to get on with their lives. I'm personally of the opinion that if we go around torturing, executing and behaving in exactly the way that the radicals say we behave, we're not going to do much to convince moderate Muslims that we have anything to offer them.

Sorry jake. Most moderate muslims are keeping their mouth shut because they know we are doing them huge favors.

[BigBear]

It's about the people with no particular axe to grind who just want to get on with their lives. I'm personally of the opinion that if we go around torturing, executing and behaving in exactly the way that the radicals say we behave, we're not going to do much to convince moderate Muslims that we have anything to offer them.

Jake Sir, I agree with you. There is a difference in what we say/do and what others say/do about us. Not to get all religious and crap but there is a time for war and a time for peace. God has His wrath and His mercy. Battlefield combatants ought to be sent to meet their Maker and see our wrath. Those other peoples should see the mercy... We build houses for them after bombings, we try to support their infrastructure, we pour billions of dollars into the local economy, etc. And yes, we make mistakes. I don't know...

If they are not changed by seeing a hardend "infidel" soldier kill a suicide bomber (who was about to take several locals with them), fall down and cry, then get up and APOLOGIZE to the locals for the killing... then to turn around and start helping with the rebuilding of a temporary shelter for the locals, etc.... I don't know what to do. If the moderate muslims stay off the battlefields, they'll be ok. Unfortunately, it's the extremists that live in their midsts that mess things up. There is no surefire way to sort them out. Pysch speaking, they will cover for their own regardless of beliefs before trusting an outsider.

The old saying is still true. You have to talk the talk and walk the walk.

Peace.