Caliber debates about pistols are worthless

[CHA-LEE]

I was trying to say that if he shot him in the head to start off with, it would have been over a lot sooner. I also want to point out that you can shoot a head size target effectively and quickly with the proper training and practice. But most people CHOOSE to settle for "center of mass" quality of hits in their training and practice. Shooters with that poor of a pistol shooting skill level probably do need a hail of bullets sent down range to luck into a head shot hit. I also want to point out the fact that for the average shooter it would take them WAY longer to perform a magazine change than it would for them to simply aim and press off a single head shot.

The way I see it you can Aim and make a quality hit or sling lead in the general direction of your target and hope to get a hit. One method is going to produce more consistent results than the other so choose wisely.

[Ronin13]

I was trying to say that if he shot him in the head to start off with, it would have been over a lot sooner. I also want to point out that you can shoot a head size target effectively and quickly with the proper training and practice. But most people CHOOSE to settle for "center of mass" quality of hits in their training and practice. Shooters with that poor of a pistol shooting skill level probably do need a hail of bullets sent down range to luck into a head shot hit. I also want to point out the fact that for the average shooter it would take them WAY longer to perform a magazine change than it would for them to simply aim and press off a single head shot.

The way I see it you can Aim and make a quality hit or sling lead in the general direction of your target and hope to get a hit. One method is going to produce more consistent results than the other so choose wisely.

My guess: you've never tried to fire a gun, accurately, in a high stress, adrenaline filled situation. I challenge you to attempt to recreate a scenario like that- go to the range, do 20 pushups, sprint 20M, draw and fire at a silhouette's head within 10 seconds (a damn eternity) from 5-7M all while someone is screaming at you. Good luck... And I've had both .mil and LEO training.

[KestrelBike]

My guess: you've never tried to fire a gun, accurately, in a high stress, adrenaline filled situation. I challenge you to attempt to recreate a scenario like that- go to the range, do 20 pushups, sprint 20M, draw and fire at a silhouette's head within 10 seconds (a damn eternity) from 5-7M all while someone is screaming at you. Good luck... And I've had both .mil and LEO training.

Forget the screaming part, he needs a gang banger advancing on him with gunfire. I guarantee he's going to shoot not aiming for headshots, but going for a general hemisphere. Oh, and first he's gotta have the mental wherewithal to draw his weapon in the first place.

[CHA-LEE]

My guess: you've never tried to fire a gun, accurately, in a high stress, adrenaline filled situation. I challenge you to attempt to recreate a scenario like that- go to the range, do 20 pushups, sprint 20M, draw and fire at a silhouette's head within 10 seconds (a damn eternity) from 5-7M all while someone is screaming at you. Good luck... And I've had both .mil and LEO training.

Your suggested challenge isn't much of a challenge. Sounds like less of a challenge than a single USPSA pistol match stage which I attend pretty much every weekend. I know I can quickly draw and effectively hit a head size target at whatever distance is needed under pressure. I can do this because I practice my ass off so it can be done. Not many gun owners hone their pistol craft skills to this level for whatever weak excuse they can come up with. Its easier to ignore the lack in skill and try to offset the deficit by carrying more ammo. To each their own.

Some of you may think that I am trolling this trying to stir up drama, but that is not my intent. I am simply pointing out the fact that going into panic mode and slinging mass quantities of lead in the general vacinity of an attacker is probably not going to yield a better result than simply aiming small so you miss small.

[Bailey Guns]

I am simply pointing out the fact that going into panic mode and slinging mass quantities of lead in the general vacinity of an attacker is probably not going to yield a better result than simply aiming small so you miss small.

Did you not read the part where the officer said this?

The suspect was in the street on the other side of the car. “I could see him by looking under the chassis,” Gramins recalls. “I tried a couple of ricochet rounds that didn’t connect. Then I told myself, ‘Hey, I need to slow down and aim better.”

I don't care what you do in USPSA...getting a better than 50% hit ratio on a moving target that's shooting back at you while you're moving as well is pretty impressive. I'd also say his training as a SWAT officer and sniper is at least as rigorous as USPSA training.

[blacklabel]

Some of you may think that I am trolling this trying to stir up drama, but that is not my intent.

Says he isn't trolling, proceeds to troll some more.

Can we have you shoot a match while I shoot paintballs at you?

[KestrelBike]

Says he isn't trolling, proceeds to troll some more.

Can we have you shoot a match while I shoot SIMUNITIONS at you?

FIFY

[Jim B]

I was trying to say that if he shot him in the head to start off with, it would have been over a lot sooner. I also want to point out that you can shoot a head size target effectively and quickly with the proper training and practice.

You must have missed this part: "Gramins fired back through his windshield". He also had this to take into account: "Then a few yards from where a 10-year-old boy was skateboarding on a driveway, the suspect abruptly squealed to a stop."

[Bailey Guns]

I also want to point out that you can shoot a head size target effectively and quickly with the proper training and practice.

You forgot the part where the head was moving quickly and shooting back at you. You also forgot the part about the head not having to worry about anything and you having to worry about all sorts of shit.

The way I see it you can Aim and make a quality hit or sling lead in the general direction of your target and hope to get a hit.

The officer was obviously aiming. That's why he got a total of 17 hits on a moving target that was shooting back at him and, at least for a while, behind good cover and/or concealment. He still managed to make 3 head shots on the guy while looking under a car. I'd say that's pretty impressive. Furthermore, almost every reputable instructor or school will teach shooting for the center of the torso when possible. Why? Because it's easier to hit a bigger target than it is a smaller target. Especially a target that, once again, is moving and shooting back at you. You can see it however you want. Almost the entire shooting community on the entire planet sees it differently.

One method is going to produce more consistent results than the other so choose wisely.

Correct. That's why everyone teaches you to initially shoot at the torso when possible. It produces more consistent results.

I think I'll echo jhood's words here and listen to the guy who's been there and done that and survived over the silly musings of a keyboard USPSA commando.