Train!

[Irving]

I disagree with this post. I don't carry to run around trying to be a hero. 65 yard shot with a pistol, at a restaurant full of people? That's just stupid.
At that distance I'll just keep out of the line of fire. I don't carry so I can protect people who won't protect themselves.

[Great-Kazoo]

I disagree with this post. I don't carry to run around trying to be a hero. 65 yard shot with a pistol, at a restaurant full of people? That's just stupid.

And i agree with you disagreeing. A miss from you is a potential homicide charge. I have a high confidence level of my shooting capabilities, that still does not under stress at 65 yards give me a clean shot. Getting closer if possible might change that scenario, again a pistol facing a rifle is 50/50 at best.

[mcantar18c]

As I said, I can shoot MOH (Minute of Hajji: not a perfect grouping but accurate enough for consistent hits on a man sized target) all day long at 100m with my carry gun. It takes effort, but its by no means impossible or even very difficult to do.
And again, its 65 yards from door to door. Distance to the gunman was probably less than that, and even door to door is by no means an incredible feat.
Sure, if you miss and by chance hit one of the people in there, you could be faced with charges. Simple solution: don't miss. Really, its that simple. Training will get you there.
Were I in that situation, I'd probably close distance. Closer = easier to get a grasp on the details of the situation and of course an easier shot at the target, not to mention the cover provided by obstacles in the parking lot.
Had the BBQ guy done so, and stopped the gunman while he had the chance, lives could have been saved.
As trlcavscout said, there are situations where its best to get the hell out of dodge or be a good witness. And "active shooter" scenario where large body counts are the goal is not one of those situations IMO.

[BigMat]

As I said, I can shoot MOH (Minute of Hajji: not a perfect grouping but accurate enough for consistent hits on a man sized target) all day long at 100m with my carry gun.

This thinking gets you shot.

MOH is enough to put one his gut/leg/chest? I have seen all of the locations take a pistol round (once 3 in the chest/gut), and the guy walk away, sometimes run. (Hell, just the other day worked with a person who got shot in the FACE and walked home!) NOT once have I seen a pistol round put a dude down from a single round in ANY of these spots except the ankle, he was crying, alot, and his ankle was a mess. The bullet or bone game was fun with that guy. If you plan to take a shot from that far against a well armed opponent, you need to get your groups smaller than than a pistol (6-8 MOA typically) can go.

You would need a clean DRT shot. The dude has an AK and you just made yourself target #1 = GAME OVER. This wasn't IDPA, hits barely count, you need to put the dude down right now, no easy feat with any firearm, much less a pistol. Worth note- I have seen no reason to trust pistols to get the job done, they are mean in the movies, a 12 gauge however, that's another story.

[68Charger]

This thinking gets you shot.

Agreed- at least shot AT, but:

You would need a clean DRT shot. The dude has an AK and you just made yourself target #1 = GAME OVER. This wasn't IDPA, hits barely count, you need to put the dude down right now, no easy feat with any firearm, much less a pistol.

This guy turned the gun on himself- if you wounded him, there's a chance he'd just off himself, when you're dealing with those kind of mentally unstable types.

Is there a good chance he'd shoot me, even kill me? Sure, the odds are not in the pistol's favor... but again, I'm sure living with myself after doing nothing would be very difficult.

the other side is that I wasn't there, I didn't see cover (or lack of), and where innocent bystanders were- I haven't even looked at the layout of the area. If I worked there every day, I'd sure know it.

[mcantar18c]

This thinking gets you shot.

MOH is enough to put one his gut/leg/chest? I have seen all of the locations take a pistol round (once 3 in the chest/gut), and the guy walk away, sometimes run. (Hell, just the other day worked with a person who got shot in the FACE and walked home!) NOT once have I seen a pistol round put a dude down from a single round in ANY of these spots except the ankle, he was crying, alot, and his ankle was a mess. The bullet or bone game was fun with that guy. If you plan to take a shot from that far against a well armed opponent, you need to get your groups smaller than than a pistol (6-8 MOA typically) can go.

You would need a clean DRT shot. The dude has an AK and you just made yourself target #1 = GAME OVER. This wasn't IDPA, hits barely count, you need to put the dude down right now, no easy feat with any firearm, much less a pistol. Worth note- I have seen no reason to trust pistols to get the job done, they are mean in the movies, a 12 gauge however, that's another story.

ALL handguns suck. Period. This is why you SHOOT THEM TO THE GROUND.
I've never competed in any kind of gun game. My guns are for killing things, and that is what I train for... whether its hunting 4 legged creatures or defending myself, and others in certain situations, from 2 legged ones.

Exactly! I'm trackin battle. A guy entering any business with an AK or anygun for that matter in his hand, dropping people in the parking lot needs stopped! Where as a guy robbing the circle K your in gettin your big gulp on who hasnt even loaded a round in the chamber doesnt really deserve getting worked up over, until he raises the bar.

Agreed- at least shot AT, but:


This guy turned the gun on himself- if you wounded him, there's a chance he'd just off himself, when you're dealing with those kind of mentally unstable types.

Is there a good chance he'd shoot me, even kill me? Sure, the odds are not in the pistol's favor... but again, I'm sure living with myself after doing nothing would be very difficult.

the other side is that I wasn't there, I didn't see cover (or lack of), and where innocent bystanders were- I haven't even looked at the layout of the area. If I worked there every day, I'd sure know it.

Its entirely possible that when faced with opposition this particular individual would have just given up, let it happen, or turned his gun on himself. However that's no something you can count on.

You bring up an excellent point though... BBQ guy was there many days a week for a significant length of time. I've been working at my job for only a few weeks, but I've already got the building and surrounding area scouted out... lines of approach from various places, cover, etc... and ran through countless situations in my mind. The BBQ guy should have done the same, if he was serious about carrying that weapon, and that would most certainly have increased his chances for success.

[Irving]

I didn't have time to read the rest of the posts yet, but this thread did at least give me a fun idea for a training exercise. 5 targets, 20 yards apart, then you jog, sprint, etc the 100 yards and engage each target as you pass. You can do it on your strong side, weak side, or even stagger the targets so you have targets on each side; then you'd have to shoot across your body while moving. I like the stagger setup idea, because if you move to the left or right of the row, then you'd be shooting on your strong hand only side, but every other target would be twice the distance away. That sounds fun. I think I'm going to set that up some time.

Also, I've never tried to hit anything with a pistol past like 35 yards. I guess I should set that up as well, but I don't know what I have to shoot at that would be large enough. Maybe I should have gotten that keg out of the dumpster a while back. heh.

[trlcavscout]

As I said, I can shoot MOH (Minute of Hajji: not a perfect grouping but accurate enough for consistent hits on a man sized target) all day long at 100m with my carry gun. It takes effort, but its by no means impossible or even very difficult to do.
And again, its 65 yards from door to door. Distance to the gunman was probably less than that, and even door to door is by no means an incredible feat.
Sure, if you miss and by chance hit one of the people in there, you could be faced with charges. Simple solution: don't miss. Really, its that simple. Training will get you there.
Were I in that situation, I'd probably close distance. Closer = easier to get a grasp on the details of the situation and of course an easier shot at the target, not to mention the cover provided by obstacles in the parking lot.
Had the BBQ guy done so, and stopped the gunman while he had the chance, lives could have been saved.
As trlcavscout said, there are situations where its best to get the hell out of dodge or be a good witness. And "active shooter" scenario where large body counts are the goal is not one of those situations IMO.

Exactly! I'm trackin battle. A guy entering any business with an AK or anygun for that matter in his hand, dropping people in the parking lot needs stopped! Where as a guy robbing the circle K your in gettin your big gulp on who hasnt even loaded a round in the chamber doesnt really deserve getting worked up over, until he raises the bar.

[Atrain1]

As I said, I can shoot MOH (Minute of Hajji: not a perfect grouping but accurate enough for consistent hits on a man sized target) all day long at 100m with my carry gun. It takes effort, but its by no means impossible or even very difficult to do.
And again, its 65 yards from door to door. Distance to the gunman was probably less than that, and even door to door is by no means an incredible feat.
Sure, if you miss and by chance hit one of the people in there, you could be faced with charges. Simple solution: don't miss. Really, its that simple. Training will get you there.
Were I in that situation, I'd probably close distance. Closer = easier to get a grasp on the details of the situation and of course an easier shot at the target, not to mention the cover provided by obstacles in the parking lot.
Had the BBQ guy done so, and stopped the gunman while he had the chance, lives could have been saved.
As trlcavscout said, there are situations where its best to get the hell out of dodge or be a good witness. And "active shooter" scenario where large body counts are the goal is not one of those situations IMO.

I agree with you on this one, if you dont know how to use your gun you could be better off not to carry it, like you said 65 yards is not that difficult of a shot but to some one who has not trained with there gun it could be. I can kind of see it from both sides of the fence the guy was probably very scared seeing the AK that can be a very scary gun, I sure would not want to be on the receiving end of one, also does anyone know what the BBQ owner was carrying, a 65 yard shot with my P3AT would be a hard shot, On the same note I would not want to have 4 murdered people that I could have stopped, I know the feeling I could have stopped my sister from taking her own life if I was not tired from working and went over to her house when she called me, I told her I would be there after I had got some rest, that night she overdosed on pills, she had tried it numerous times in the past so I would have seen the signs.

[Great-Kazoo]

As I said, I can shoot MOH (Minute of Hajji: not a perfect grouping but accurate enough for consistent hits on a man sized target) all day long at 100m with my carry gun. It takes effort, but its by no means impossible or even very difficult to do.
And again, its 65 yards from door to door. Distance to the gunman was probably less than that, and even door to door is by no means an incredible feat.
Sure, if you miss and by chance hit one of the people in there, you could be faced with charges. Simple solution: don't miss. Really, its that simple. Training will get you there.
Were I in that situation, I'd probably close distance. Closer = easier to get a grasp on the details of the situation and of course an easier shot at the target, not to mention the cover provided by obstacles in the parking lot.
Had the BBQ guy done so, and stopped the gunman while he had the chance, lives could have been saved.
As trlcavscout said, there are situations where its best to get the hell out of dodge or be a good witness. And "active shooter" scenario where large body counts are the goal is not one of those situations IMO.

I agree with training, in my CCW class i cannot stress training enough, 1 or 2 classes do not a proficient gun owner.
Since i already posted i will add this. Targets DO NOT SHOOT BACK
Unless you are training under fire (Simunitions) all the time, or have been involved in a shoot out, you will never know what it is like to have some one return fire.
Arm chair quarterbacking doesn't play in the real world.
Example: Columbine, had numerous LE depts on site, unfortunately the Com between depts was fuked. However with unknown assailants NOT ONE LE entered the building to stop the threat.
I am at the dry cleaners 2 doors down from the IHOP and i hear gunfire. I see #1 assailant with a rifle. All of a sudden Shooter #2 makes an appearance from a building same side of the street as me.
Do I engage Shooter 1 or 2, Is shooter 1, even with rifle going after shooter #2's accomplice or shooter 2 accomplice of 1??? Is shooter 2 an LE without ID as happened in NY recently and was shot by another LE?? Do i draw and engage, what happens if an off duty LE was on site and see's me running towards IHOP? More than likely he would order me to halt or shoot since he also does not want to draw fire.
I am also one who runs towards the train wreck as i have to live with myself and sleep at night. UNLESS i have a clear picture of what is going on engaging would be a call only made at that time. YMMV.