Train!

[mcantar18c]

And Irvings last comment
is the perfect segue (pronouned: segway) for the questions I've had in my head since starting to read this thread.

YOU are the BBQ restaurant owner across the street from a guy you just watched kill a woman. You see this same man walking AWAY from you and towards another restaurant (not yours) with his firearm.

YOU are not in danger and are NOT involved or (probably) won't even be a potential target for this shooter.

What does the LAW say (here in CO) about your right to involve yourself and brandish/use a firearm/lethal force?

Keep in mind ALL of the statements above before you answer. Do you feel your decision would hold up in front of a DA/Judge/Jury?

In this particular situation... as long as the man was posing a threat to others, I'd do everything in my power to stop him.
Is it dangerous? Yes! Would we draw fire? Absolutely! That would be the whole idea. Bring the fight to me so that innocents are not killed.
Not to mention... if I'm in my home/motel room/vehicle/business, I would most definitely have a long gun available. Though that's another conversation altogether.
As for hitting innocent bystanders. They will without a doubt have rounds flying towards them in the next few seconds... whether from the BG's weapon directed at them, or from mine while taking down the BG. I'm sure they'd be happier with him as the target and not them. If I was worried about hitting them, I'd solve that problem by closing distance and/or lowering my position (they're sitting, target is standing... lowering my position puts my shots at an angle that will go over their heads, not to mention gives me a more stable shooting position).
"Fear for my life and the lives of others" should help you in the courtroom, but I'm not worried about that. My #1 concern is making it TO the courtroom... I can worry about "after the fight," after the fight.

With all the tough or as some see it MANdatory actions be taken talk, No One has taken me up on the 2 targets and betting drill, very disappointed. Surely someone would have stepped up instead of sitting on the sidelines without doing anything.
$10 per round 2 rounds max. i'll up it to $20 per round 2 rounds max. lets put some money where our bragging rights go.

I agreed to it...
While it would be much easier with the setup I'm getting soon, we don't need to wait till then.

[Inspector Fowler]

I know I'm new here but I've been in law enforcement for almost a decade.

I'm a huge, huge supporter of gun rights and the 2nd amendment. I fully support concealed carry for any citizen willing to train and educate themselves.

But if you really think you can hit a moving target at 65 yards with a handgun with absolute certainty, your confidence exceeds my reasonable limits. I have no doubts people can hit "minute of person" at 65 yards against paper. I can as well. But as soon as that "paper" is walking, running, ducking, shooting, etc, the odds go down terribly.

YOU are responsible for every round you put downrange. If you miss - once - and hit an innocent person, nobody will care in the courtroom. Even if you kill the aggressor, and you saved 20 other people from potentially being killed, you will absolutely be held accountable for the innocent life you ended.

Criminally, the District Attorney may decide not to charge you, or he may. That's going to depend on a lot of factors.

But in civil court, you will be sued into smithereens. Sitting here at our computers, we can bravely say, "I'd rather save some lives and live in a cardboard box than be a coward", but I honestly don't see you winning that suit, and even if you do, I hope you have an extra $50K sitting around for attorneys.

[Bailey Guns]

$50K for legal fees in a wrongful death suit??? Good luck with that.

I got sued once for $16 million for excessive force by a family that made a career out of suing government entities. Took over 2 years to resolve and wound up with a 7 day trial in federal district court in Denver. Of course, I won because everyone knew these scumbags were lying.

Bottom line: My attorney fees over 2.5 years came up to about $480,000. Insurance paid that for me but the court ordered the dumbass that sued me to repay that amount to the insurance company.

Been there, done that with the civil thing. Don't want to do it again unless my life or the life of someone I really care about is jeopardized.

[Great-Kazoo]

$50K for legal fees in a wrongful death suit??? Good luck with that.

I got sued once for $16 million for excessive force by a family that made a career out of suing government entities. Took over 2 years to resolve and wound up with a 7 day trial in federal district court in Denver. Of course, I won because everyone knew these scumbags were lying.

Bottom line: My attorney fees over 2.5 years came up to about $480,000. Insurance paid that for me but the court ordered the dumbass that sued me to repay that amount to the insurance company.

Been there, done that with the civil thing. Don't want to do it again unless my life or the life of someone I really care about is jeopardized.

This and what Insp Fowler posted is what i too inform my students about. No matter what the out come of the DA's investigation IF you were involved in a use of deadly force shooting, the civil suit can and just might break you financially. Each and every round fired must and will be accounted for. The one that missed and hit innocent bystander X is the one that will have you charged with manslaughter or negligent homicide, that you can bank on. No matter how tough the talk i have seen the toughest freeze, or hesitate, just long enough to change the outcome of a confrontation.

One thing that was not mentioned or i missed in the many post is this. While the person with the CCW did not act as some would want, what was he carrying? What are you carrying? I could understand the train of thought "XX should have taken the shot no matter the distance" XX should have engaged etc"
So one of us carries a full size handgun, what was he carrying that day as all seem to assume the ccw had firepower with him.
Was it a Kimber, Colt, Glock or how about a Ruger or kelTec .380 even better one of the NAA mini guardian 22 S/A 1" bbl revolvers.
I would put money had the CCW engaged the perp with his .380 or even 22lr the topic would be how another CCW's bravado got him killed being out gunned and that his training was lacking because everyone knows being out gunned is a sure way to get killed.

[68Charger]

One thing that was not mentioned or i missed in the many post is this. While the person with the CCW did not act as some would want, what was he carrying? What are you carrying? I could understand the train of thought "XX should have taken the shot no matter the distance" XX should have engaged etc"
So one of us carries a full size handgun, what was he carrying that day as all seem to assume the ccw had firepower with him.
Was it a Kimber, Colt, Glock or how about a Ruger or kelTec .380 even better one of the NAA mini guardian 22 S/A 1" bbl revolvers.
I would put money had the CCW engaged the perp with his .380 or even 22lr the topic would be how another CCW's bravado got him killed being out gunned and that his training was lacking because everyone knows being out gunned is a sure way to get killed.

Well said- so the lesson we should all take away is that not being prepared always has consequences...
in real life, you have to weigh being prepared with lugging around an arsenal (and other tools for survival, nutjobs with a gun aren't the only thing that can go wrong, you know)

so reality limits what you prepare for- because trying to take your gun room, medical gear and tool box with you everywhere just isn't practical.

What I found interesting when I mentioned this story to my wife, and her first reaction was that they should pull his CCW permit, because he didn't help... I got her to calm down that he's not required to, he was outgunned, we don't know the whole story, etc... but she apparently puts a very high standard on those of us that carry...

[BigMat]

In this particular situation... as long as the man was posing a threat to others, I'd do everything in my power to stop him.
Is it dangerous? Yes! Would we draw fire? Absolutely! That would be the whole idea. Bring the fight to me so that innocents are not killed.
Not to mention... if I'm in my home/motel room/vehicle/business, I would most definitely have a long gun available. Though that's another conversation altogether.
As for hitting innocent bystanders. They will without a doubt have rounds flying towards them in the next few seconds... whether from the BG's weapon directed at them, or from mine while taking down the BG. I'm sure they'd be happier with him as the target and not them. If I was worried about hitting them, I'd solve that problem by closing distance and/or lowering my position (they're sitting, target is standing... lowering my position puts my shots at an angle that will go over their heads, not to mention gives me a more stable shooting position).
"Fear for my life and the lives of others" should help you in the courtroom, but I'm not worried about that. My #1 concern is making it TO the courtroom... I can worry about "after the fight," after the fight.


I agreed to it...
While it would be much easier with the setup I'm getting soon, we don't need to wait till then.

I am never going to agree with you on this. At least you acknowledge a long gun. Training gets you NOWHERE in this fight, unless you are trained to go to cover when taking fire. There are quite a few people on this thread who are good professional trainers and/or have years of services carrying a side arm professionally who disagree with you. I am not one of these people, just a guy who has seen what a pistol can do in real life and isn't about to try to pick a fight with one against a rifle, ever. I don't know your story or who you are, you could be Todd Jerrett for all I know, but even if you are or shoot as well as he does, you are sounding reckless or ignorant. I know that sounds/is rude, but suggesting we should get into high volume fire fights, from range, against a very capable rifle, in public is reckless or ignorant.

Bellow are a few facts-
100 yard dash /= combat stress
50 pushups /= combat stress
10,000 rounds in training /= 1 round in combat
miss in training /= miss in public
handgun impact on ballistic gel /= handgun round impact on armed man
good hit on IDPA target /= dead/disabled active shooter
Pistol /= rifle
pistol round /= rifle round
-training is great, it helps, but it doesn't give you the ability to smot foes at a thought ever. Second guessing someone who was there is nonsense.

Look at the lot again, the parking situation provides no cover, just long lines of fire. While were are talking about "what if's" and hypotheticals. There were unarmed people in his resturant for sure, did he know who was in the IHOP? What if a FBI HRT was on lunch in there, how about a CCW in a MUCH better position to engage, maybe a NV-AR15.com meet? The CCW shooter would be seen as a IDIOT in retrospect and be facing trial and/or dead. (estates can be sued) He had NO way of knowing the shooter was going to off himself, what if he just planned to barracade/rob the IHOP, he had NO way of knowing he was facing a high volume shooter. In either case, an outside observer providing good intel would be exceptionally valuable, and save many lives, a dead guy with a pistol gets no one anywhere.

His BEST action, call in support, provide observation so that when those with any chance to intervene successfully have good intel and early notice.


Rule I learned early in the firehouse. And I would wager Cops have a similar plan. I know armored cars do (spent a little while on one)

protect yourself first
protect your partner/crew next
protect you patient after you are safe
protect everyone else last

Are these men all cowards? Nope, just reasonable. I know there are plenty of men on the internet who are all about "damn the torpedos, full speed ahead," based on your avatar I trust you are familiar with at least one. In reality, guns blazing is not always the best call or the better part of valor.

[Ronin13]

Jumping in a little late... but I have a question:
Who here honestly trains for that one in a thousand situation where you'll engage a target beyond 25M? 25M is the max range I train for with a pistol. Why? 90% of all shootouts happen within 25 feet. Do you guys realize how far 100M actually is? It's a bit longer than an NFL football field. Go to your local high school, stand in one endzone and look at the other, or have your friend stand in the other. See how small he is? I never train for engaging a target at that range with a pistol. Sure I can make steel sing at 600M with a 5.56mm AR- but the target is about 65% the size of a fullsize man! I guess all the superman hero types here would attempt to put down a threat at 65+ meters, but I don't plan or train for that particular situation and really see no need to. The #1 and 2 situations I train for is the thug with a knife trying to take my wallet or car and he's at about 2-10 feet. I don't train for a situation that would either A) get me fucking shot, or B) get me fucking shot a lot. I'm not sure about you guys, but the first time I handled an AK-47, it was not sighted to my eye, I had very little formal training on it (as this was the first formal training), and I hit damn near perfect every time. It's an easy weapon, point and shoot. You take a .40 pistol vs a AK-47, I don't give a shit if you're a 20 year veteran of SEAL Team 6 with over 2500hrs in the kill house with your Sig, at 65M the guy with the rifle has a far superior advantage, even if you manage to hit him you're coming under fire and you better hope whatever deity you worship likes you that day. Don't mean to be a dick, but I've trained for combat situations using weapons that range from a 50 Cal crew served weapon at 1000M, to a combat 9mm pistol at 15M, and I can tell you I'd rather not engage a target at over 35M with a pistol, and I don't plan on training for that long shot situation. It goes against my thinking. Why would I use my AR to try to engage a target beyond it's maximum effective range? Just to prove I'm a bad mofo? I leave that shit to Hollywood.

[Byte Stryke]

you guys are SOOOOO Asking for Atrain to pull out his GSG1911 with the Trijicon long range 5-20x50 sniper scope and school you in how its done...

he shoots pop cans at 100 yards and hits everytime




sorry... I had to

[Bailey Guns]

No...he really does.

[TFOGGER]

Solution: Keep a rifle ready to go. 65m headshot with a scoped rifle, from cover, easy. Or call in an airstrike.